Logan Pass crowds - 8 a.m.

[Pizza Bob]

The current shuttles, like nearly all public transit systems, are subsidized.
In layman’s terms, this simply means they are money losers. Adding more shuttles requires more money.

Personally, I would be delighted if there were also a separate alternate “for profit” shuttle service,
preferable with a large parking lot outside the park that supplemented the existing shuttle that provided
a $20/day hop on/hop off service that ran extended hours, and also allowed reserving specific time slots.
I believe there is enough demand that one could make a tidy profit and provide a well needed service.
Even an Uber-like model would beat the current time sucking parking space hunting.

But I suspect that current concessionaire contracts in the park are exclusive and prohibit any other provider
except Xanterra (red busses) and Sun Tours from providing transportation within the park boundaries, in
which case such ideas are moot.

So for now get up early!

[Sue Z]

But let's say they did expand the shuttle system.
Where would they park the cars for people riding the shuttles?

The parking lot at Apgar(and St Mary) is often filling up today by mid morning or earlier.
Yesterday, the St Mary lot was 2/3 full when I drove through around 8:00AM.

Good point! They'd need more parking on both ends!

[thorn726]

From what i saw there is obviously no place to expand parking at Logan Pass but St Mary and Apgar Vistor Center lots both could be enlarged some, and will hopefully be part ofthe eventual plan.. Another BIG problem though is the same reason they have those smaller shuttles on the West side, the road simply wont handle larger vehicles... so there would need to be many more buses... Some parks do have large numbers of buses running a constant stream, but those places also shut the roads to private vehicles... that may be the future for Glacier as well...

how bad was it? Monday July 16 we pass Logan at 715am and it is less than half full, but filling fast... that day 720am we were only the second car to park at Siyeh. Friday July 20 we arrive at Logan Pass at 7am and it is more than half full. 759am it was completely full... and some people spent up to half hour circling the lot looking for a space. The "good" news is many people take the Hidden Lake Overlook trail for an hour or so and leave so some spaces do turn over.. Story below...

We know this because // well, we were the people to Hate on Friday, we lived in that parking space...... for our last day in the Park we had to leave at 1pm, but i wanted to get in some more views... So we got up at 530am broke camp. 6am drove to Logan. Then we spent 2 hours at the car getting our stuff organized, a lot of people kept asking if we were leaving//.. I rested in the car a few minutes and did the Hidden Lake Overlook hike for a second time.. So Worth It!! Poor Roxana's feet were destroyed so she stayed in the car and slept for awhile, then she woke up it and was a constant stream of "are you leaving" until i got back/// she watched a group of girls circle the lot for literally 30 minutes before finding a space. When we finally left at 11am two cars were at our spot so i helped the one who was there first to the space to avoid problems. People who arrived at Logan at 8am were very disappointed, most of them had tried to rush there early but not quite early enough. It seemed like some slow drivers on GTTS Rd were refusing to use turnouts to prevent people from getting parking... fortunately we knew we were ok and tend to take it slow in the Park anyway.. Let a few tailgaters pass us to watch them make it 100 yds to tailgate the next driver... Me- like to have some room to stop in case an animal jumps out in front of the car ahead of me.... Plus the view is much better when your windshield is not blocked by the back end of another vehicle...
//ps please do not stop in the travel lane for no reason. Photos are NOT a reason. Animal or Human crossings are the only reason to stop. GTTS Road is nothing but blind corners, stopped vehicles pose a serious hazard. Enjoy the views, Go Early and Take it Slow!

[mattB]

Thanks Josh, for the interesting webcam captures!!!

Basically, as others have said, the problem all comes down to funding...
There are ways to solve the traffic and parking problems but they all take money.
And for whatever reason our National Parks are drastically and continually under-funded. They don't have the resources to maintain the existing facilities and services let alone expand anything.

Would a for-profit private bus work? Maybe, but not likely, considering that it would really only be profitable in July and August, but would have to have a fleet of expensive buses. If it was to work, it would probably cost more like $50 per person.. If we want to privatize the parks and make all the facilities and services be profit based, the enjoying the National Parks is going to be financially impossible for a large segment of the population.

It seems that at some point there will have to be increased restrictions on private vehicles on the main roads. Maybe charging a fee to drive the Going to the Sun Road (GTTSR) above Avalanche Creek or Rising Sun Campground and charge for parking at Logan Pass? Restrictions like these would have to be accompanied with increased shuttles, and parking.

Myself, I would much rather ride a bus going over GTTSR than drive, EXCEPT that there aren't adequate shuttle buses, so its nearly impossible to coordinate hiking transportation.

If we could remove 50-60% of the private cars from GTTSR, and double the number of shuttle buses, it might be a workable system, but for the same reason that a private shuttle bus system won't turn a profit, the NPS shuttle buses are going to have to start charging..

[Sue Z]

I would gladly pay the cost of early shuttle service on a government-run bus. It would certainly be less expensive than a for-profit version.

[Jay w]

I look at the system. So the Hidden Lake trail can't (as is can not) handle many more people. Logan Pass can't really handle any more sewage. So the parking lot at Logan is about the right size for the capacity of the system (including the other trails starting at Logan). I think the problem is that too many people are wanting to use the National Parks. The NPS needs to make the park less popular and increase revenue. I propose there should be a death penalty for illegal parking anywhere on Sun Road. Shot on sight by a ranger. Stop in the lane of traffic to take a photo. Beheading (again by a ranger). Step off the boardwalk, death by shooting. Feed a marmot, boiled in oil. Of course the video rights could be sold off to raise revenue.

I can't take credit for these ideas. They're from Steve Martin, with a little input by George Carlin (beheading and boiled in oil and selling TV rights). Ok, my point is that more transport won't solve a problem, it'll just shift the problem to other areas.

Jay

[davidwayne]

I've said it before and I will say it again. The parks are being loved to death. There is no excuse to have a 7 day pass cost $20-$50. Make it $100-$200 and plow the revenue into park maintenance, extra shuttles, etc. To those that say it will price people out of visiting the park, how much does it cost a family of four to visit GNP? Most come from other states. Say $2000 for airfare, lodging, rental car, and meals, at the least? And upping a weeks pass to $100 or $200 is going to prevent then from enjoying the park? No way. Up the fee based on attendance and use the extra revenue to preserve the park and provide improvements for future generations. This needs to be done across the board at all national parks, which are being overrun. EVERY person visiting a park has a smart phone that cost them more each month than a weeks entry pass. Its time to price entry fees accordingly.

[PeteE]

I took a picture (coming later) of the parking lot at 8:02AM on the way up Mt Oberlin----looked full to me.
Absolute zoo at noon.

pete

[PeteE]

Logan Pass parking lot 8:02 AM July 28th

Been there twice since then and nothings changed.

[llholmes1948]

Link to an article in the Missoulian about increased Park visitation:

https://missoulian.com/news/local/it-s- ... 82CB64C1CA

[PeteE]

The word is out and people are learning.
At 0738 local time the parking lot is slam full.
I think I'll ride the shuttle out to Logan Pass about noon.
Give Jaybird a break and see how it works on a random Tuesday at mid day.

pete

[MarxMN]

i know this does not help most people wanting to park at Logan Pass to start hikes but twice last week the Logan Pass parking lot was a very pleasant place at the 6:00 pm to 7:00 pm timeframe. There were 25-40 vehicles. On the evening we walked part way up the Hidden Lake Overlook trail there were other people on the boardwalk but it was not crowded.

[PeteE]

My shuttle ride to Logan today didn't happen.
NO place to park in Apgar. And I dont have the patience to drive in circles looking for a parking spot.
So here I am at Apgar Lookout looking at the smokey landscape.
HOT and windy. Whose dumbass idea was this anyway????

Later
pete

New antenna system should be first picture. Looking west next to it. Smokey
https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-dZJmjV/i-sCNj6Rx

4:28pm got to go back down. Too windy.

[chrystal]

We were in the park the week of July 22. Not sure if we lucked out, but never encountered any parking issues the entire week (even on days we got a late start). We did a lot of hikes we have never done before and avoided Logan Pass since we have been there so many times. There were even a few days we got started really late (9:30am) and I was concerned about finding parking around Many Glacier/Swiftcurrent but there was always a spot. One morning we pulled into Sun Point at 10am and there were only 3 cars already there. The only place it really felt crowded was a mid-day stop in Apgar and we had to park ¼ mile down the road towards the campground – but there were plenty of spots down there because no one wants to walk that far. A lot of the shuttles I saw were mostly empty. I was really worried about the crowds before our trip, and it probably helped that we avoided some of the more popular hikes.

By just re-painting the lines in several of the parking lots more cars could easily be parked. However, I do think the crowds are a problem. More people brings more issues to deal with. I picked up a lot of trash at Redrock Falls and even around the grounds at Lake McDonald Lodge. I observed a lot of people with dogs, many of them not leashed. We saw a bunch of people crowding around a moose (like 2 ft away – not exaggerating) at the Lake Josephine boat dock as it was trying to exit the water. The park doesn’t have the resources to deal with everything, and some people just have no common sense.

[Pizza Bob]

Had some guests visiting yesterday. On a last minute whim we decided to do
the St. Mary lake boat tour and guided hike at 2pm. Entered thru West Glacier
around 10am with a 10 minute wait at the gate, then took about 1.5 hours to
get to the Rising Sun boat launch — not super fast but not super slow either.

No problem getting boat tickets, lunch at Two Dog Flats, and had a very pleasant 3 mile RT hike to
the St. Mary falls, with a side trip to Baring Falls. The trail was busy, but
not to the point of overcrowded.

So without any advance reservations on a peak summer day, we experienced no
parking delays and had a great day!

I will seriously consider parking at the Rising Sun boat parking lot in the future and taking
the shuttle back up to Logan Pass. The east side shuttles have more capacity and don’t have
the transfer in Avalanche which entails the risk of further delays.