New Updated Search & Rescue HST ReConn Form 2.0

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Maverick02
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New Updated Search & Rescue HST ReConn Form 2.0

Post by Maverick02 »

Glacier National Park Chat Members,

I am a moderator from High Sierra Topix and spreading the word about our New Search & Rescue
HST Reconn Form which is named after Larry Conn a member and friend of ours who died last
year in the Sierra Nevada.
Hope you will use it and distribute it between fellow hikers so we can possible save lives in the
future. Would request fellow moderators or Admin to please pin this so folks can continue to
download it. Thank you.
http://highsierratopix.com/community/vi ... =1&t=10192
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Re: New Updated Search & Rescue HST ReConn Form 2.0

Post by mikie »

Not sure this would work very well in GNP. The permit process is different. And, so is the terrain.

I also live in a different region of the country where we have hike registration boxes. 90% of the people don't register, and those who do rarely provide useful information.

While I think your form is a good idea, I think that most people would not use it.
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Re: New Updated Search & Rescue HST ReConn Form 2.0

Post by daveparker »

Before posting information of this nature, please contract me or one of the moderation team in the future.

Dave Parker
Jen

Re: New Updated Search & Rescue HST ReConn Form 2.0

Post by Jen »

mikie wrote:Not sure this would work very well in GNP. The permit process is different. And, so is the terrain.

I also live in a different region of the country where we have hike registration boxes. 90% of the people don't register, and those who do rarely provide useful information.

While I think your form is a good idea, I think that most people would not use it.
To not put the option out there just because you don't feel people will use it is silly. I think the idea of registering your itinerary may not even occur to a lot of first time hikers. Nothing wrong with planting the seed of safety.
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Re: New Updated Search & Rescue HST ReConn Form 2.0

Post by Maverick02 »

Dave:
Before posting information of this nature, please contract me or one of the moderation team in the future.
Will do.

Mikie wrote:
Not sure this would work very well in GNP. The permit process is different. And, so is the terrain.

I also live in a different region of the country where we have hike registration boxes. 90% of the people don't
register, and those who do rarely provide useful information.

While I think your form is a good idea, I think that most people would not use it.
This will work in any park in the US. As long as you can upload a map url of your intended route and the
campsites along the way, and fill out the other information, it will give SAR a much better idea where you
may have intended to go, and like in our members case, it would have saved time for SAR having to
collect all this information from family members, friends, and fellow hikers, which took a lot of precious time.
Here is a tragic incident that occurred in July of this year in the Sierra: http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum ... Lakes-area
If this form would have been filled out, even partially, it would have at least allowed a SAR to be initiated, which
never happened because no one knows for sure where he went climbing. Yes, a lot of folks do not believe anything
will happen to them, or they have to much experience, I have been going to the mountain over 43+ years, and one
of the many things I have learned, mother nature can occasionally be out smarted, but she can never be out done.
Jen wrote:
Nothing wrong with planting the seed of safety.
Exactly! I do not expect everyone to download the form, but those who do could save there lives, and also
prevent their families from having to experiencing a lot of anguish,heartache, or from the dreaded experience
of not knowing, like Matthews family and friends. :(
Last edited by Maverick02 on Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Updated Search & Rescue HST ReConn Form 2.0

Post by mikie »

I think you need to go back and read my post again. I think you misunderstood it.

I have been hiking for 51 years. Worked as a paramedic, in an ER, SAR, etc. Investigated quite a few hiking incidents like Maverick's friend. Had the unpleasant experience of explaining to families that their loved one died. Have taken families of dead hikers to the accident site and explained what happen. Always a bad experience. I also run a web site to help people have a better experience and do it safely as possible. Has a gigabyte of hiking information. Cost me about 10 grand a year. So as you can see, I didn't fall off the boat yesterday.

Where I live we have registration boxes at every trail head. People are suppose to register their hike. It only collects minimal information, and takes less then a minute to do. We go out of our way to try to get people to register and register correctly. It is on almost all our hikes posted on our web site. But, people just don't want to register. 90% of people REFUSE to register. Those who do, often put in false names, or refuse to put in their phone number. Even refuse to register where they are going hiking. Check out this:

Image
Here is a guy who registered as "Bugs Bunny". Let me make a note about this registration. He registered the hike for Huckleberry Point instead of Devil's Kitchen. Devil's Kitchen and Hell's Hole is one of the most dangerous places on earth to hike. Hundreds of people have been killed there. Now for the final note: Someone in his party was killed 10 minutes after the registration. I spent a lot of time with his daughters explaining what happen.

Image
Here is a registration book. I blocked the names and phone number. If you look closely, only two people put their phone numbers in. Other people refused to tell Rangers where they were going. Others lied about where they were going.

As for Maverick's Form. This idea isn't new. We tried it too. Out of 500,000 visitors we have each year, NO ONE used the Form we created. Finally, we removed it from the site. People just refuse to provide information.

As for the Maverick's Form being capable of handling every location. I disagree. Every region has different dangers. Some dangers are not so obvious. For example, GNP has a danger of Grizzly bears and Mtn Lions. Bear spray is important. But, some people don't carry it. It would be a very important question for SAR and Rangers. In Northeast most hiking occurs in the Winter. The clothing list becomes very important. Hiking the Pres Range requires good wind and cold clothing. In the Southwest, the amount of water you are carrying is very important. Having hiked the Sierra Mtn, I think Maverick's Form works well there, but not so much in other regions.

I would like to make a suggestion. I would make the form a downloadable Word document. People can then customize it for their needs. I would have two Forms. One for summer to address the needs of minimalist, and one for Winter where I would have different questions. Some people also plan out their hike well in advance (Todd for example). Other people, like me, figure out where they are going to hike on the way to the mountains. People like me, will fill it out at the TH. There are a lot of people like me.

If there was a region of the country that might actually use the form, it would be 13ers and 14ers. For some reason they have a different attitude. Can't tell you why.

I personally, always register for my hikes. I put a sheet in my car. And, I carry a PLB which is registered with the important information with NOAA.

I certainly hope you can get people in the Sierra's to use your Form. While I find it valuable, other people don't. I hope this explains my original post better.
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Re: New Updated Search & Rescue HST ReConn Form 2.0

Post by Maverick02 »

Where I live we have registration boxes at every trail head. People are suppose to register their hike. It only collects minimal information, and takes less then a minute
to do. We go out of our way to try to get people to register and register correctly. It is on almost all our hikes posted on our web site. But, people just don't want to register.
90% of people REFUSE to register. Those who do, often put in false names, or refuse to put in their phone number. Even refuse to register where they are going hiking.
Yes, understood, you cannot help folks who do not want to help themselves, understand the dangers involved, or feel invincible.
As for the Maverick's Form being capable of handling every location. I disagree. Every region has different dangers. Some dangers are not so obvious. For example, GNP has a
danger of Grizzly bears and Mtn Lions. Bear spray is important. But, some people don't carry it. It would be a very important question for SAR and Rangers. In Northeast most
hiking occurs in the Winter. The clothing list becomes very important. Hiking the Pres Range requires good wind and cold clothing. In the Southwest, the amount of water you
are carrying is very important. Having hiked the Sierra Mtn, I think Maverick's Form works well there, but not so much in other regions.
We'll have to agree to disagree on this point. The bear spray should be included into the bottom section of the form, same with clothing, and water info, but will agree
it takes someone wanting to take the short time to fill out the form, and as you pointed out correctly, most folks won't, unfortunately for them.
I would like to make a suggestion. I would make the form a downloadable Word document. People can then customize it for their needs.
Something being considered, thanks for your suggestions Mike, your SAR service, and your efforts to help people help themselves.
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Re: New Updated Search & Rescue HST ReConn Form 2.0

Post by mattB »

Jen wrote: To not put the option out there just because you don't feel people will use it is silly. I think the idea of registering your itinerary may not even occur to a lot of first time hikers. Nothing wrong with planting the seed of safety.
I agree. The form seems straight forward, and easy enough to fill out. The form itself is not going to prevent problems or accidents from happening, but it may help a SAR team find the hikers faster, so it doesn't really seem like it needs to be totally customized for different locations or seasons, the key being that it needs to be simple enough so that people WILL fill it out and still contain the information that will help the SAR people find you.

I've always thought that trailhead registration was just a way for the parks to count how many people are using the trails, or as a precusor to charging fees for hiking on the trails, I never even thought about it as an aid for finding lost hikers, that puts it in a little different perspective, I'll be more diligent about the trailhead registrations in the future.

Also, I checked out the mapping site mentioned on the ReConn form http://www.hillmap.com/ and it seems like a pretty nice site. Several options for different topo maps, a simple interface for plotting your own route, and then a way to print that map, or create a url link to the map, here's one I created in about 5 minutes..
http://www.hillmap.com/m/ag1zfmhpbGxtYX ... ICAsOCBCAw

I've been using TopoQuest for my online maps, but I've never found a good way to annotate those maps, or put my own route on it.
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Re: New Updated Search & Rescue HST ReConn Form 2.0

Post by teapot57 »

The GNP website offers a similar form that can be downloaded from the website or picked up at any Glacier backcountry permit office: http://www.nps.gov/glac/planyourvisit/u ... p-Plan.pdf
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Re: New Updated Search & Rescue HST ReConn Form 2.0

Post by Maverick02 »

MattB wrote:

I agree. The form seems straight forward, and easy enough to fill out. The form itself is not going to prevent problems or
accidents from happening, but it may help a SAR team find the hikers faster, so it doesn't really seem like it needs to be
totally customized for different locations or seasons, the key being that it needs to be simple enough so that
people WILL fill it out and still contain the information that will help the SAR people find you.
Yes, this is the key. When first introducing this form it was a pdf, and significantly longer than this 2.0 version.
The younger generation and tech savvy folks will not touch it because of the lack of mapping, photo upload,
and/or the length of the form. This is why after talking to hikers/backpackers/SAR people this is what was
developed. A form that could be customized is a cool idea, but after considering it, the idea was dropped
because it would be beyond the attention span that most people would have to invest to such a form, which
is shocking because it is for their own protection, but it is reality.
As Jen wrote in her post, even if you never use this form Matt, the seed of awareness has been planted.
Teapot wrote:

The GNP website offers a similar form that can be downloaded from the website or picked up at any Glacier
backcountry permit office: http://www.nps.gov/glac/planyourvisit/u ... p-Plan.pdf
This form is beneficial too, though my belief is that most will not use it for some of the reasons my original
form would not have been used either.
Last edited by Maverick02 on Fri Nov 01, 2013 4:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: New Updated Search & Rescue HST ReConn Form 2.0

Post by pitamakan »

I really like the High Sierra Topix form linked in the opening post ... it looks very well thought out, with exactly the sorts of information that would most likely be needed in an emergency situation. And it's constructed in such a way that today's relatively tech-savvy generation would find it easy (and maybe even enjoyable) to fill out.

This is in contrast to the NPS dayhike form for Glacier, which I see as being cumbersome and almost designed to intimidate. It almost seems like the NPS form is intended less as an emergency tool, and more as a way to get people thinking about broader preparedness/risk issues for outdoor travel. That's definitely a worthy goal, of course, but maybe that would be better addressed in a different way, since the nature of the NPS form probably dissuades many/most people from filling it out.

It's interesting, too, that the NPS dayhike form is considerably more complicated than what the park requires for a multi-day backcountry permit. (Though of course the dayhike form doesn't get transmitted to the Park Service.)

Mark
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Re: New Updated Search & Rescue HST ReConn Form 2.0

Post by Maverick02 »

Mark wrote:
I really like the High Sierra Topix form linked in the opening post ... it looks very well thought out, with exactly the
sorts of information that would most likely be needed in an emergency situation. And it's constructed in such a way
that today's relatively tech-savvy generation would find it easy (and maybe even enjoyable) to fill out.
Thank you Mark, happy to read that you liked it, will hopefully use it, and even pass it on to others.
When Larry, my friend and a long time HST Member went missing it got me thinking of a way
we could have this basic, but possible life saving information ready to send to SAR as soon as possible.
Collecting even this basic vital information by SAR/Sheriff Dept takes precious time, which an injured
person may not have a lot of. Many times the situation is complicated by the fact that neither family
nor friends have any idea which agency to contact in case of a missing hiker, and when it comes to the
investigation itself, they may not know anything about the missing persons hiking habits, the equipment
they possess, or even which area they may have intended to visit.
I do understand that most folks will probably never use this, but if it saves just one life, it was well worth
the time and effort.
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Re: New Updated Search & Rescue HST ReConn Form 2.0

Post by Jay w »

This year was a solo trip, and I found Glacier has no interest or resources to track hikers. Normally, if I'm hiking solo, my wife knows the route, when I'll be back and when to start worrying. This year I went to the ranger station and found their only form was only for tracking trail use. (The climbers log, or something similar.) I was told by a ranger that tidbit AND they will not start a rescue until you're confirmed missing. (What does that mean?) So if you're going to give out information, I think it needs to be separate from NPS or the park rangers and the above Glacier form as much as says that. The form presented looks as good as any. It kind of feels like Maveric is getting jumped on here. You know, no good deed is left unpunished.

Of course you won't use a form until you've had a close call or are old enough to realize you're not bulletproof. I guess qualify on both. Beside, I don't want my carcass eaten, I want it cremated.

Jay
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Re: New Updated Search & Rescue HST ReConn Form 2.0

Post by Jen »

Jay w wrote:
Of course you won't use a form until you've had a close call or are old enough to realize you're not bulletproof. I guess qualify on both. Beside, I don't want my carcass eaten, I want it cremated.

Jay
What he said.
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Re: New Updated Search & Rescue HST ReConn Form 2.0

Post by teapot57 »

I hope Maverick doesn't feel like I was jumping on him by posting the link to the NPS form. At a cursory glance, it seemed similar to his as far as intent and content, so I was was pointing it out as another option.

I am one of the minority that actually leaves the NPS form in my car or room, and I so far have only used established trails. No one setting out on a mountain hike in bear country should think they are invincible. I read these stories of slips turning into major accidents, maulings, missing hikers and think . . . . there but for the grace of God go I . . .
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