Walk-in permits? Line up time?

Are you a seasoned hiker, or just starting out? Let us know your questions or experience with the backcountry permit process.

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mgunn
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Walk-in permits? Line up time?

Post by mgunn »

My understanding is that the offices open at 7am.

(1) What time would you recommend getting to an office (eg. Apgar) to have a reasonable shot at a desired itinerary?
(2) Is this a show up at 6am kinda thing?
(3) Is there massive supply-demand imbalance such that people line up the night before?
(4) Should we have major contingencies? (eg. plan out possible routes in completely different areas at the park so we at least get something we've thought about...)

Background:
* It will by first time in Glacier National Park..
* My girlfriend and I are hoping for some itinerary from Belly river area up and over Stoney Indian Pass to Goat Haunt.
* I'm familiar with the site to see what's available: https://home.nps.gov/applications/glac/ ... status.cfm
* We'll be there in early August.
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Re: Walk-in permits? Line up time?

Post by PeteE »

mgunn wrote:My understanding is that the offices open at 7am.

(1) What time would you recommend getting to an office (eg. Apgar) to have a reasonable shot at a desired itinerary?
(2) Is this a show up at 6am kinda thing?
(3) Is there massive supply-demand imbalance such that people line up the night before?
(4) Should we have major contingencies? (eg. plan out possible routes in completely different areas at the park so we at least get something we've thought about...)

Background:
* It will by first time in Glacier National Park..
* My girlfriend and I are hoping for some itinerary from Belly river area up and over Stoney Indian Pass to Goat Haunt.
* I'm familiar with the site to see what's available: https://home.nps.gov/applications/glac/ ... status.cfm
* We'll be there in early August.
This is the busiest year I've seen since I moved here in 2002.
That said, I don't know how busy the BC office has been with backpacking permits.
So, were I you, I would be at the Apgar Office no later than 0500, 0530 at the latest.
Very early arrival is especially important for popular campsites like the Belly River area sites y'all want.
If you were trying for Dutch Creek or some infrequently used site, you could walk in at 0800 and be good.

Since there are two of you, one goes to the office and gets in line with a book, the other person goes and gets/makes breakfast for you both 8)
Some here may scoff at being that early, and they're entitled to their opinion. I just disagree.
What's the harm? You lose a little sleep? So what? Take a nap. Sleep later, whatever.
You'll give yourself the best possible chance to get the itinerary you want by being FIRST in line.
You'll be glad you did.

2 minute video


pete :wink:

And "Bonnie and Clyde" say so too :mrgreen:
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Re: Walk-in permits? Line up time?

Post by orin »

In addition to Pete's advice:

You really want to be in line the morning before you want to leave not the morning of.

You know about the "What's available tonight". Make sure you have a copy of that after office closing the evening before you show up at the office. Either bring it up on your smartphone or go to the office and read the copy they tape to the door. Using that, spend the evening planning two or three possible routes. No point in wasting your time the next morning asking for a route that the sheet shows is not available.

Be willing to do your route in either direction and think about what campsites you could substitute. For example, based on tonight's sheet you could go in tomorrow morning (28th) and ask for Gunsight (29th), Ellen Wilson (30th) and Sperry (31st).

It takes both planning and luck.
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Re: Walk-in permits? Line up time?

Post by mgunn »

Thanks for the thoughtful responses Pete and Orin! Sounds like I'll get there extra early and bring a jacket and a book. Cheers, -Matt
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Re: Walk-in permits? Line up time?

Post by mgunn »

Intuition about it being busy was right...

Probably just unlucky on our day, but we showed up about 5:30am at Apgar July 31 and were 8th in line! lol... multiple groups had spent the night on the front office porch in sleeping bags. By the time 7am rolled around, the line went out to the road, and the ranger even took a picture, said it was the busiest he had ever seen it.

Anyway, by the time we they got to us.. (first couple groups were trying piece together complicated northern routes...) basically nothing was left for a day 1.

For our short trip, we decided it would probably be best to instead do some amazing day hikes (eg. we just did Siyeh pass and had a great time).

Thought I'd post this just to give a data point for people interested in day before permits.

Cheers,
-Matt
Last edited by mgunn on Sun Jul 31, 2016 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Walk-in permits? Line up time?

Post by paul »

Kind of sad how crowded the park has become. I remember not long ago I could show up at Apgar at 10:30am in the morning an have a permit for Upper kintla, boulder pass and back starting that day. Sperry was pretty easy to come by too. I think I had three consecutive years of showing up the day of and getting a site a Sperry.
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Re: Walk-in permits? Line up time?

Post by joybird »

Wow. :shock:
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Re: Walk-in permits? Line up time?

Post by PeteE »

First....I'm sorry you you didn't get a trip. I know it's both disappointing and frustrating.
Some will believe I'm being my usual smartass self, but I'm not completely surprised at the line at 0530.
The park has been slammed lately with people, and I see no sign of that letting up any time soon.

pete :wink:
"If you are not curious, you will learn nothing" -Goethe-

"When you're born in this world, you're given a ticket to the freak show.
And when you're born in America, you're given a front row seat."

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Re: Walk-in permits? Line up time?

Post by Rivewin86 »

I'm going to make a longer post about this but...

I was also there at July 31... so I suppose we met Mgunn... or at least saw each other.

But we showed up at 5:00 am on the dot and were 6th in line.

3 groups had literally slept at the Apgar permit center... sleeping bags... inside the porch with another guy sleeping on the ramp.... I"m really not sure how this is allowed as this in my opinion is considered camping at a non-designated spot. No matter how early you would have gotten there you would not be ahead of these groups who showed up prior to 1 AM.

When the office opened there were I believe 18 groups in line and the Park Ranger took a picture.

Now... with that said... 3 groups in front of me had zero idea how the process worked.... one guy saying he was getting a route that started at Many Glacier (You can't start or end here AND there was no availability at that site, regardless, which was clearly posted).

2 other groups ahead of me were trying to piece together a Northern Circle with iteneraries that were logistically impossible or not available... upon talking to several people they would say "we're trying this..." but I was saying "well not of that is available, which is clearly marked on the not available list"...

So basically the park rangers made these 3 groups step aside to allow others to go. Although precious time was still wasted here... and they kept butting back in line ahead of those people that were behind me. (Remember we are competing with 3 other backcountry permit centers here). I ended up with a good route only because I was prepared for when certain things we wanted were unavailable.

Originally wanted Slide Lake - Cosley Lake - Mok Lake - Kootenei Lake

Ended up with Slide Lake - Elizabeth Lake Foot - Glen Lake Head - Kootenei Lake - Out at Goat Haunt.

It's a pretty frustrating process but you have to know what you want and be prepared with backup plans. It's sad that people will basically cost you slots because they are up there with zero idea of what they are doing or are trying to get something that is logistically impossible.
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Re: Walk-in permits? Line up time?

Post by Rivewin86 »

Oh one other frustrating thing:

Elizabeth Lake was completely booked the night we were tehre... yet only 3 of the 6 sites were occupied. I imagine this happens frequently, but it's sad when people get advanced reservations and don't show up :cry:
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Re: Walk-in permits? Line up time?

Post by mgunn »

@Rivewin86, the share of booked campsites that actually are occupied would be interesting data!

A certain share of unused campsites is inevitable, but if the number is large, it implies that the current system is inefficient, wasteful, that there are bad incentives.

From what I've read, there are no incentives (beyond maintaining good karma) to cancel an advanced reservation that won't be used. From the website, "If your plans change and you [call to cancel]... A refund will not be provided, but it will allow other campers to enjoy those sites you cannot use." Good karma may be nice, but what you try to do in market design is to align *some* financial incentive with what's right! A simple way to cancel reservations online that gives a $10 refund (or more if done far enough in advance) might do a remarkable job at getting people to cancel reservations they won't use.

A downside of refunds though is that they further strengthen the land grab incentives, to reserve whatever you can because you *might* use it. From talking to people in line at Apgar, it sounded like the advanced permits sold out in the first few minutes they went online? Is that true? I'm curious what share of people got roughly what they wanted?

-----

Overall, my trip this year was absolutely fantastic for being put together mostly at the last minute. I can't complain! It strongly appears though I massively underestimated the competition for backcountry permits (at least on that particular day)! And if we're back next year, I'll be sure to bring a higher level of planning and sophistication to play the permit game.
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