Wilderness Permits 2023

Are you a seasoned hiker, or just starting out? Let us know your questions or experience with the backcountry permit process.

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zozeppelin
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Re: Wilderness Permits 2023

Post by zozeppelin »

Digging further, it looks like REY, MAN, and TWO are available but hidden based on a 'is accessible as child only' dependency. It could work in reverse, but I'm suspecting not, such that a dummy site would need to be added. I'll see if I can find similar for another park.

Speaking of dependencies, it appears each site has a list of possible connecting sites. I have decoded that and put into a matrix below, read from horizontal to vertical. I haven't checked anything thoroughly yet, but it might be beneficial to check your itinerary in advance to see if there are any errors. For instance:
Poia Lake to Granite Park is possible but not Granite Park to Poia Lake.
Poia Lake to Many Glacier but not Many Glacier to Poia Lake ?!
Reynolds Creek to Many Glacier but not Many Glacier to Reynolds Creek ?!
As well as Gable to Slide but not Slide to Gable.
Helen to Many Glacier but not Many Glacier to Helen.
Finally, Round Prairie is available to Otokomi Lake if you're interested in a leisurely stroll.

Image

No indication on North Fork availability in September.
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Re: Wilderness Permits 2023

Post by paul »

teapot57 wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 11:41 am As for HEL, they will book the whole campground for larger groups. But if you have a group of 9, you would not be able to book it because there are only 2 tent pads. If you’ll remember Paul, in 2018 when we had the group permit and you stayed with us at STO, we had the whole campground. We were a group of 9 and there were 3 sites.
I think I remember that now. Although I disagree that it should be allowed. I'm beginning to think they need to do away with large group permits altogether or at least to go back to 9+ people for the group minimum. Not that I blame anyone for taking advantage of the special rules put in place for these types of permits.
Last edited by paul on Sat Mar 11, 2023 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wilderness Permits 2023

Post by zozeppelin »

teapot57 wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 11:41 am On the GLH layover day, we will either do Margaret Lake, Sue Lake Bench or even Stoney Indian Pass as a few in the group have never been there. But most likely Margaret. Conditions may play a factor since it’s early season. We will decide as it gets closer but I really love that area for all the options.
Jealous! One of these days ...
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Re: Wilderness Permits 2023

Post by zozeppelin »

So a little follow-up:

Only Yellowstone has the '"is_accessible_as_child_only" = true condition of the 11 wilderness permits I looked at, and those are for four sites outside of the park (bounding forests), so that makes good sense, as one could add a day outside the park and need to have it for a continuous itinerary, but if they were starting outside the park - no need to have it on the permit. So for REY, MAN, and TWO - I think that error I have speculated will be come to pass - they will be unbookable as a first night even with a valid starting point. This one hits close to home, as my favorite hike is probably Many Glacier to Siyeh Bend (or reverse) - having been to Many Glacier 4 times, but never by car, this is a big fail.

Here is the total naughty list:
POI to GRN: Yes, GRN to POI: No
POI to MAN: Yes, MAN to POI: No
GAB to SLI: Yes, SLI to GAB: No
HEL to MAN: Yes, MAN to HEL: No
REY to MAN: Yes, MAN to REY: No
OTO to ROU: Yes, ROU to OTO: No

Literally had HEL-MAN-REY on my permit last year.

I haven't checked distances or for any complete misses yet.
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Re: Wilderness Permits 2023

Post by paul »

Zozeppelin,

Maybe you can call or email the Glacier Backcounty offices to ask about this. I don't think they would do this intentionally but it may be a side effect of the new reservation system. And maybe something that is fixable.

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Re: Wilderness Permits 2023

Post by orin »

Zozeppelin,

So as luck would have it, SLI to GAB is part of my itinerary. So maybe I should plan on GAB - GAB and then change it later? Otherwise on D day I might spend extra time dealing with that. That is what you are suggesting, right?

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Re: Wilderness Permits 2023

Post by sbosecker »

zozeppelin wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 11:09 pm ...Speaking of dependencies, it appears each site has a list of possible connecting sites...
zozeppelin,

Well done!

I'm trying to imagine why SLI to GAB is a no-touch.

Best regards,

Scott
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Re: Wilderness Permits 2023

Post by zozeppelin »

Thanks for the feedback and suggestions.

I struggle with even trying as I've given up home of 'them' caring. Perhaps it only takes 'one', but between the poor maintenance of the availability/trail status websites, the one month start of processing delay last year, the ignoral of feedback on the rec.gov transition, heavy handedness of the road permits, etc leads me to believe they just don't care. The complete whiff on the Cascades/Yellowstone lottery process along with the suspected errors I'm finding that should have been caught further cement that for me.

I do believe the errors are fat fingers (for the dependencies), for instance no one would suggest OTO to ROU is a valid segment - that is over 50 miles best case if you assume hitchhiking on roads (ROU to BOW and LPE to RSE).

The REY/MAN/TWO first night issue I suspect is likely due to the IT people implementing the rules not understanding how those can be valid sites per the rules and/or just taking a shortcut for convenience given existing algorithm framework.
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Re: Wilderness Permits 2023

Post by zozeppelin »

Ok enough whining, looking for feedback for this year.

I'm wanting to cross some new passes and see some new areas, hopefully getting more experience with less developed paths so I could eventually attempt something like Red Eagle Pass, Norse Traverse, Scenic Death March, Thunderbird Traverse, Floral Park, etc. So here is what I came up with:

Two Medicine -> Cobalt Lake (5.7 mi, 1371 up)
Cobalt Lake -> Lake Isabell (8.3 mi, 1879 up, 2932 down)
Lake Isabell -> Park Creek (9.7 mi, 0 up, 1527 down)
Park Creek -> Coal Creek (8.8 mi, 1900 up, 2000 down)
Coal Creek -> Beaver Woman Lake (11 mi, 2000 up, 0 down)
Beaver Woman Lake - Old Man Lake (13.9 mi, 3000 up, 2000 down)
Old Man Lake -> Two Medicine (via Dawson-Pitamakan) (11.9 mi, 1394 up, 2841 down)

As I understand it, fords go 1, 4, 2 for days 4, 5, 6. I'd be aiming for September, how bad are these? I'd assume pretty tame due to time of year, but haven't been able to find anything.

How rough is it on the Fielding Trail (Park to Coal) - seems like that would be pretty low on the list for maintenance? I met some guys two years ago that did BEA->MOR and were pretty beat upon arrival, saying Cutbank Pass was difficult to find the trail (September as well) - also low on the maintenance list.
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Re: Wilderness Permits 2023

Post by sbosecker »

zozeppelin wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:36 pm Two Medicine -> Cobalt Lake (5.7 mi, 1371 up)
Cobalt Lake -> Lake Isabell (8.3 mi, 1879 up, 2932 down)
Lake Isabell -> Park Creek (9.7 mi, 0 up, 1527 down)
Park Creek -> Coal Creek (8.8 mi, 1900 up, 2000 down)
Coal Creek -> Beaver Woman Lake (11 mi, 2000 up, 0 down)
Beaver Woman Lake - Old Man Lake (13.9 mi, 3000 up, 2000 down)
Old Man Lake -> Two Medicine (via Dawson-Pitamakan) (11.9 mi, 1394 up, 2841 down)
zozeppelin,

I did part of this back in 2007...

No Name Lake
Upper Two Medicine
Cobalt Lake
Lake Isabel
Cobalt Lake

Back then they allowed 2 stays at Cobalt on the same itinerary.

A lot has probably changed in 15 years... the 2 campsite "pads" at Isabel were ridiculously small. There was certainly a sense of solitude there.

I thought the views from Two Medicine Pass were very nice.

When we hiked out from Cobalt it was going to be too early to check into our hotel even after the drive to Kalispell. We asked a Ranger at the Two Medicine Backcountry Office if there was some place to get a shower.

"Brownies" came the reply, He thought it would cost a dollar for a shower there.

We drove to Brownies and stepped inside. I asked the pleasant lady behind the counter about the possiblity of getting a shower there.

She replied in the affirmative and indicated the price was a dollar. I nodded and started to go outside to tell my hiking partner we had scored.

At this point the nice lady said, "Do you have a towel?".

"No", I replied. "That will be another dollar", she said.

I smiled and said, "How much is hot water?" She chuckled and said there was no charge for hot water.

I think that was the best $2 I had spent in a long time!

Best regards,

Scott
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Re: Wilderness Permits 2023

Post by wnysteve »

zozeppelin wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:36 pm
How rough is it on the Fielding Trail (Park to Coal) - seems like that would be pretty low on the list for maintenance? I met some guys two years ago that did BEA->MOR and were pretty beat upon arrival, saying Cutbank Pass was difficult to find the trail (September as well) - also low on the maintenance list.
A few years back I had a permit that included Park to Coal. I had spent four days in the Park Creek area and had not seen a soul, until I came upon a trail crew guy near Park Creek. He said that Park-Coal had not been cleared yet (this was September) and there were about seventy trees across the trail. Going over mile after mile of deadfall with a backpack is no fun, so I exited at Walton and called it a good trip. Maybe it will be better in the year you attempt your objective (and a very worthy one), but it would be worth a talk with the BC office first.
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Re: Wilderness Permits 2023

Post by teapot57 »

Good luck to everyone tomorrow morning! :arrow:
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Re: Wilderness Permits 2023

Post by zozeppelin »

It's up early, or daylight savings issue. Either way, hurry!
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Re: Wilderness Permits 2023

Post by cdsmith379 »

It seems to be down again.
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Re: Wilderness Permits 2023

Post by zozeppelin »

Yes, I was able to get mine in, but want back to check and see if the errors I expected existed .... and poof no availability.
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